This post contains a back and forth conversation. You might find it interesting and even informative.
I remember as a child (when we had the privilege to have Bible believing pastors) sometimes preachers would tell us about the coming Rapture. It has been popular to think that all little children will be caught away in the Rapture, therefore preachers would tell unsaved parents that when the Rapture takes place, they will go to the baby's room and the baby will be gone, but the unsaved parents would still be there.
I don't think that is accurate. I believe the young children of saved people will go in the rapture, but the children of unsaved parents will be left behind with their parents. Those children will have the opportunity to get saved during the Tribulation. The Bible clearly says there will be infants here during the Tribulation. Remember too, children were left behind in Sodom and Gomorrah as well as the Noahic Flood.
This did not mean the children will be lost forever, but it does illustrate that children suffer for the sins of their parents in this present world if not eternally. Those children will be able to either receive or reject Christ during the Tribulation.
SO, more disturbing than children disappearing at the Rapture is the fact that they will still be here, to suffer, because their parents chose not to receive Christ.
CJ... One thing worries me about this... Were there not righteous people left behind in Sodom and Gomorrah as well as the Noahic Flood? I believe that there were.
DLG... According to the Bible, the answer is, No. The infants, who were born with a sinful nature (as all people are) were not inherently in a right relationship with God, but the atonement of Christ was for everyone, which covers all preborn and infant children, until they become personally answerable to God, at which time, whoever calls upon the Name of the Lord will be saved. So, God has made provision for all men, thus the Scripture says that He is the Savior of all men, especially those who believe.Therefore, since they were covered by the atoning blood of Christ, the small children of Sodom and Gomorrah, and in the days of Noah, were not under God's judgment. However, the Bible tells us that Noah was the only righteous man in his day and God had agreed with Abraham to save Sodom and Gomorrah if there were ten righteous men. Since God did not spare Sodom and Gomorrah it is clear that there were not ten righteous men/women. Since God is a just God, it is also fair to say that the only righteous man in S and G was Lot.
CJ... That does not sound like the God that I have loved all of my life, so we will have to just agree to disagree. Jesus, "said, Enter the little children to come unto me". He didn't judge those little children. I am not a preacher as you are, but this takes away from my belief of the Lord God that loves the little children no matter who or what their parents are.
DLG... Or, we could agree to see that the God of the Bible is not only as merciful as you believe He is, but He is also righteous and just. The Bible teaches so much more about God than most people ever hear. This is why I am so sold on the Bible. It has no contradictions, but it offers no simplistic answers. Or, if you are not interested in following up, we will disagree, but at least one of us will be wrong. I think the subject is important enough to find out what the Bible actually says. But, thank you for sharing. As you know, I love you even if you do disagree.
By the way, what leads you to think that there were other righteous people in those days?
I guess another question I have (since the God I describe does not sound like the one you have loved all of your life); Is it not loving for God to provide atonement for every person born into this world? Is it not loving for God to provide salvation for every person who sins (and all have sinned), through the death and resurrection of His only begotten Son. Was it not merciful for God to give Sodom and Gomorrah time to repent and time for the people of Noah's day to repent (120 years of Noah preaching righteousness to other people)? In reading the Bible, I am not sure where you can disagree with the God of John 3:16.
In fact, the destruction of S and G was merciful to those precious little children who were being violated and had no one to step in and stop the violence and perversion of the day. Those little children were not responsible for the sins of their parents, but they suffered for those sins. God, in His mercy saved those children and future generations of children from the monsters of the day, bot in S and G, and in the world of Noah. I am afraid that there will come a time when God will have to act as dramatically in the future for our world, as it spins out of control.
CJ... I have not disagreed with John 3:16, in fact I think that John 3:16 further proves my point that God so loved this sinful world that He gave His son Jesus Christ to die for those sins; the same loving Jesus that called the little children to Him; the same Jesus that walked hand in hand with that little girl so long ago that you saw walking through the Promiseland". I love the Lord and I am thankful that He loves even a sinner like me.
I love you David, no matter what.
DLG... Here is the thing. The God of John 3:16 is the same God of Genesis and the rest of the Bible. His judgment is not inconsistent with His love. God loves us, but God requires us to repent (turn from our sins) and follow Jesus. Again, I would be interested in your answers to my questions. I will certainly try to answer any questions you might have for me.
CJ... In answer to your question of "what leads you to think that there were other righteous people in those days?" The same reason I believe there were righteous people in these days coexisting with evil ones and also because the Bible was translated and re-translated and re-translated by man over innumerable centuries.
DLG... First, the Bible message is not corrupted because of either time or translations. Whatever differences are found are reconciled through scholarly examination, and there is no document in history that has been more faithfully transmitted than the Bible. Tomes of scholarly work have verified the authenticity and genuineness of the Holy Bible. The Bible has stood the test of time and criticism. Most people do not know this because they listen to people who are proud of the fact that they do not believe the Bible. I will be glad to document my assertions.
However, if you are right, that the Bible record is corrupted, then it is absurd to say that we believe in John 3:16. Why would that passage be true but the other passages be untrue? How can we say that Jesus (if there really was a Jesus) died for the sins of the world? How do we even know that God loves the world or has a Son, or that He rose again from the dead? If we can't trust the transmission of the Bible, we cannot believe John 3:16, except as a fairy tale.
Also, John 3:16 does not make any real sense if the rest of the Bible is not true, since John 3:16 addresses the problems of sin, separation from God, eternal judgement, blood sacrifice of the Son of God. If there is no sin, or if sin does not separate from God, or if God does not judge sinners, or if there is no eternal punishment, then there is no reason for John 3:16.
See, a person is free to either believe the Bible or not, but a person cannot pick and choose what to believe in the Bible. Jesus believed in the Noahic account, and in the Sodom and Gomorrah account. If Jesus believed it, then we are wrong if we don't believe it. If He believed it and it was wrong, then He was both fooled and a fool for building His teachings on an error or a lie It comes back to this, either Jesus, who was the fulfillment of the entire Old Testament record, Who also believed the entire Old Testament record, either that same Jesus was either a liar, because He deliberately misinformed us, or He was a fool, because He believed ancient myths or mistranslated information and built His whole message on fallacy, or, He is Lord and should be believed, followed and obeyed.
Most people don't believe the whole Bible because they really have no idea what it says about sin, salvation, and God. I, along with countless others, do believe the whole Bible because I have studied it, and followed its teachings. It all fits together and it would not make any sense if part of it was wrong. If we don't like the revelation of God in any part of the Bible, then we can't really like the revelation of God in another part of the Bible, because He is the same God.
CJ... David, please do not corrupt my love of God by making the way that I believe, wrong. You make me cry by thinking that I do not believe the Bible. I have one beside all the time. My husbands father was a preacher as was his father before him and my husband and I love God to no end and I believe that my precious husbands soul is with the Lord right now. All religions are "right" to all that believe them. Because each one has a different view on things in the Bible, does not reflect the love they feel for God. I can quote things all day long and I don't have the strength to argue the rights and wrongs. All I know is that I love God and someday my light will shine in Glory. My heart has always been filled with with Lords love for me. Hallelujah!
"Of the animals that live in the sea or in a river, if the animal has fins and scales, you may eat it. But whatever lives in the sea or in a river and does not have fins and scales -- including the things that fill the water and all other things that live in it -- you should hate. You must not eat any meat from them or even touch their dead bodies, because you should hate them. You must hate any animal in the water that does not have fins and scales." Leviticus 11:9-12 I do love shrimp, but am I going to hell for eating them, or oysters, or clams, or scallops?
DLG... CJ, thank you for responding. I want you to know, I am not attacking you. I am responding to your initial comment and presenting my answers to the supposed conflicts you see in the Scriptures.
There is no way I am corrupting your love of God. I have no doubt that you have a love for God. Actually, my intent is to present the Biblical position of PERFECT LOVE. As far as "making the way that (you) believe, wrong," I cannot do that. I can say that if a person does not believe what the Bible says to be true, then that person is wrong. A person does not have to believe the Bible, but he cannot say he believes the Bible and then explain how the Bible is wrong. There is no other discipline in life where this principle applies. I want everyone to believe the whole Bible, because, as Jesus said, in the Scriptures we find life.
Two diametrically opposed positions cannot both be right. Either the Biblical record of Sodom and Gomorrah and the record of the antediluvian world are accurate, or they are not. Since I believe the Bible, I know that the accounts are accurate. You said that all religions are "right." That is definitely not true. The Bible says that Jesus is the Son of God, whereas some belief systems say there is no God; some religions say that God does not have a Son; some religions say that Jesus is not God's son. Either He is God's Son or He is not; opposite beliefs cannot both be right.
Jesus said He is the way, the truth and the life and no one comes to the Father, except through Him. Either this is true or it is not. A person can believe what he wants to believe, but if "no one comes to the Father except through Jesus", then those who do not believe the message and ministry of Jesus are not coming to the Father. Our view of truth does not determine truth, it simply determines our response to truth.
My intent is to help people know the truth, for as Jesus said, knowing the truth will set us free. I am not out to destroy anyone's faith. I am simply pointing out what Biblical faith is. I do this because I love God and His word, and because I love the people for whom Jesus died.
Concerning UNCLEAN ANIMALS... Carolyn, this is part of what I was saying about understanding the entire message of the Bible. Your argument about eating animals that were part of the Levitical law is wrong. I will be glad to explain why the law was important and how the Bible does not apply that to the present day if you are interested. However, Bible believers do believe that this law was from God and it served a purpose. This is one of those cases where you are learning from people who do not understand the message of the Bible.
I see that you have written more, while I am responding, so I will post this and see what you have added.
Remember, just because I disagree with you and argue my point does not mean I am being ugly or that I don't respect and love you. Remember too, you are the one who disagreed with my initial statement, and what I am doing is explaining my position.
Later.
You mentioned that you believed there were righteous people (other than Lot) living in S&G, and during the Antediluvian period (other than Noah). Let me point out another Biblical problem with that concept, other than the fact that it contradicts what the Bible says.
Only followers of the God of the Bible are righteous. The fact is, unless a person has a right relationship with God, through God's revealed plan of salvation, then that person is not righteous. The Bible says, in reference to those without salvation, that there is none righteous, not even one. The Bible also says that the supposed righteousness of the unsaved is as a filthy rag before God. The only righteous people are the ones who have turned from sin and trusted the God of the Bible to save them. Therefore there were no righteous people, either in S&G (other than Lot) or in the world when the flood took place (other than Noah).
When the rapture takes place, the only ones who will be righteous are those who have received Christ by faith and are following Him daily. There are no righteous people outside of a right relationship with Christ.
Not only did Jesus say that He was the only way to God, the Holy Spirit said in the book of Acts;
Acts 4:12
(12) Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
So, my preaching the message of the Bible is not an unkind thing, it is the most kind thing that can be done. For, if a person does not forsake all other religions and beliefs and a life of sin, then that person will be lost forever. I proclaim the good news, that God is in Christ, reconciling the lost to Himself and that whosoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
